Re: Observative example, grammar question

[cowan (John Cowan)]

la djim. kartr. cusku di'e:
> At the L.A. group meeting we discussed "observatives",  Initially we had
> trouble to analyse the meaning of the bare kunbri "nanmu"; we concluded
> that it meant "manliness is happening here", but the distinction between
> that and "a man", while obviously real, is hard to explain.  But we came 
> up with a better example:
> 
> 	carvi				It's raining
> 	lo carvi			Look, raindrops

Bare "nanmu" does not mean "manliness is happening here", which would be
a different observative:  "ka nanmu".  "nanmu" is analyzed as follows:

	nanmu
	zo'e nanmu
	something-unspecified is-a-man
	A man!

Similarly, "carvi" means "something-unspecified is raining".  Both of these
observatives state claims.  "lo carvi" and "lo nanmu" state no claim: they
simply refer to something, without telling you anything about the referent.

> Now a grammar question:  Translate "The cat on the mat eats the rat" using
> a modal phrase.  
> 
> 	le mlatu be vi le matci cu citka le ratcu
> 
> Is "be" used correctly here to link "vi le matci" to the sumti rather than
> the selbri?

Yes, this is correct.

> Assuming it is (and continuing a previous thread), how does 
> this differ from 
> 
> 	le bajra be ve lo'e dargu cu citka le cinki
> 	The roadrunner (runner via roads) eats the insect (ve = place tag 4)

This is ungrammatical:  you are using a conversion where you should be using
a place marker.  You need "le bajra be fo lo'e dargu".

> (Please don't flame the literal translation; I needed an exact parallel.)
> The official linker is "vo be" (digit 4), but would my usage actually be
> rejected by the grammar and would it be incomprehensible to subsequent
> steps?

That's Old Loglan; we no longer have numeric-marked linkers.  In Lojban,
"BE term [BEI term] ... /BEhO/" is pure glue; it simply attaches trailing
terms to a selbri, so that you can get the semantics of a full bridi where
the grammar allows only a selbri, notably in descriptions.  The bridi
underlying the description in your sample sentence is:

	bajra fo lo'e dargu
	something runs via the-typical road

and to make this a description, we insert the glue around the trailing
sumti, including its place marker.

-- 
cowan@snark.thyrsus.com		...!uunet!cbmvax!snark!cowan
		e'osai ko sarji la lojban