Re: RV: na'e entails na?

[HACKER G N <c9709244@ALINGA.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>]

On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, And Rosta wrote:

> Geoff:
> > On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, John Cowan wrote:
> > > I retract my arguments, and move to the Jorge/lojbab camp.
> >
> > Yes, I go to the Jorge/lojbab camp too, subject to your proviso that the
> > positive statement implied by "na'e" must be related to the negative
> > statement along some intelligible scale. (If it weren't, one wouldn't be
> > able to make much sense of "to'e", for example.)
>
> Before it gets settled by consensus-of-everyone-except-me, can
> we see how the following things can be said:
>
> (1) If na`e entails na: How to say something equivlant to na`e
>     but not entailing na?

I don't really care, because I agree with Jorge that "na'e" without
entailing "na" is a fairly useless concept. But why don't you try using
"drata", or maybe "frica"?

 > (2) If na`e doesn't entail na: How to say
something equivlant to >     na`e + na?

Could be done using some compound phrase, but it might be convoluted.

> (1) I can do only by "su`o broda" & long circumlocution, & even
> then it would be hard to get the "relevant scalar neg" idea by
> circumlocutory means.

Maybe if you really want to nail it down, but the concept doesn't seem
useful enough to bother with that.

> (2) I have no idea about at all, but still strikes me as a
> likelier way of avoiding overunwieldy circumlocution.

And it doesn't strike me that way. :)

> I take it we are now agreed that (i) "entailing na" = "equivalent
> to a {na ku} at the end of the bridi,

Why at the END of the bridi? It doesn't make any difference where you
put the "na" in a bridi; its grammar and semantics are exactly the same.
That's another reason why scalar negation was invented; it allows more
sophisticated means of grammatically and semantically manipulating the
sentence with respect to negation.

>and (ii) na`e either
> asserts or at least implicates that the negation is along some
> contextually relevant scale.

"Na'e" always asserts this.

Geoff